Habi Hour S1 Episode 5: Level Up! Designing Games for Learning

Conversations about designing games as learning experiences – where to start, how to test your idea, and how to balance learning and fun

What are the objectives of the game you want to design?

JOVI: Even before we go into the construction of the game, is going back to your goal as ultimately the one designing this game. Since sinabi mo rin na this is going to be an impact project for your thesis, ano po yung specific objectives mo?

DENZ: Number one, DRRM is being ignored by the student. Hindi siya ganoon binibigyang pansin ng estudyante unless may nangyari na. Kapag may nangyari na tsaka lang sila magtatanong ng, “Sir, may lindol. Ano pong dapat naming gawin?”

Second, siguro dala na rin siya ng inis ko [laughs]. Personally, kasi I am a teacher in DRRM and I am an advocate of first aid. Yet, yung mismong school namin – I am not against the school but then, regarding sa program, kaunti na nga lang ang oras ko, once a week ko na nga lang namemeet yung bata ta’s minsan tinatanggalan pa ng oras kasi may kailangan daw gawin. Parang ang dating tuloy sa akin, hindi ganoon ka-important yung subject, which is not true. Of all the subjects, compare it to Math, Science or English, I think DRRM is one of the important one. Kasi right now, sa mga nangyayari, diba, dapat mas alam nila yung dapat nilang gawin. I am not comparing it the other subjects pero practically speaking, this should be done. And, actually, mas gusto ko nga siyang ibaba sa lower level kaya nga kanina sinabi ko na sana yung game maiintindihan siya ng kids para eventually, when they grow up, they have already the idea especially for those people who are taking medical courses. Kasi siyempre, STEM to e, ta’s makikita nila may four levels – from the layman to the rescuers, to the medical professional. So, different approaches will happen.

Hindi lang siya, “porket naglalaro ako, ito yung level ko, ito na yung dapat kong gawin all the time.” Which is hindi naman ganoon practically in real life.

JOVI: Ultimately what you want to do through this game is teach the necessary first aid skills, no matter their age level. You want to start it as young as possible, right? And then through that game have a better appreciation of first aid and disaster preparedness, I suppose is the main topic. And then first aid skills.

DENZ: But in a perspective of a medical practitioner.

JOVI: So parang may technical knowledge, para mas technical yung lens din talaga. Kaya ko rin naitanong kung ano yung goal ninyo para matulungan namin kayo maframe ng mas maayos for your project. Kasi, sa pagkakasabi niyo rin po, parang ang dami niyong gustong mahit na outcomes – merong technical proficiency sa first aid, may levels pa. Yun yung gusto niyo talagang idownload [to the learner/user] pero what about the players themselves?

Yung age appropriate the age level, yung knowledge. Paano niyo rin, eventually once you start producing the game, paano niyo isusulat yung mechanics na maiintindihan ng isang ten year old versus ng isang high school. So marami po talaga siyang – may complexities. Maganda talagang maarticlate muna yung primary objective niyo to help guide your process. And help you decide and prioritize otherwise dadagdag at dadagdag lang ang details na sa tingin niyo ay important but doesn’t really serve your end goal or objective.

KAYE: Yung pinaka naaalala ko from our co-design is that we got in touch with an actual game desiger, si Nico, from Balangay Games and ang sabi niya is typically game designers make games kasi they want to have fun. So iyon yung primary objective nila. But when you are making an educational game, dapat unahin yung educational objective natin. And as a teacher, I think dito pumapasok yung expertise ninyo, Sir, about like, really identifying kung ano ang outcome na gusto mo after ng players nilaro ang game ninyo, before we dive deep into developing the mechanics.

JPAUL: Tama, I think naalala ko rin sa dinevelop nating games dati, madali lang siya kasi in a sense, isa lang ang audience natin. Parang high school students na magte-take ng DRR1 and DRR 2 na course halimbawa. Pero kung gusto natin halimbawa na yung naging case ay marami tayong levels na hinihit – ito yung DRR learning objectives for lower levles, ito for high school, ito for college ta’s kunyari ito yung for graduate – definitely yung aims natin noon magkakaroon ng different versions or different ways of playing depende kung anong level ang hinihit. Alam ko yung games natin may ganoon din. Meron siyang different ways of playing pero same cards, same board, mero lang siyang different set of rules.

JOVI: May nadagdag na challenge parang kapag higher level or mas advanced yung player. Kasi parang for a card game, you can play it as solo drills na refresher siya. Of course yung learning objectives niya is to refresh the student but onece you go into competitive mode, doon lumalabas yung critical thinking skills, yung mas HOTS [Higher Order Thinking Skills], na kind of learning outcome na gusto mo. Pero of course, iba yung mechanic na ginagamit nila even if it’s the same game na ginagamit nila.

DENZ: Parang naisip ko, I have here, talagang may drawer ako na puro card games. I mean puno ng board games. And then narealize ko na sinasabi niyo ngayon ay para siyang “Exploding Kittens” na meron yung color black na for adults. I think that’s from twenty years old and aboe. And then there is another, brown na exploding kittens, na nagstart siya for thirteen years old. Parang ganoon, mas madali siya, easier mode.

JPAUL: Siguro, Sir, yung nakuha ko rin sa kinukwento niyo rin ngayon lang, medyo related din ito sa kung paano pba magstart o magsimula magdevelo ng game. Hindi naman talaga natin kailangan magstart from scratch. Pwede naman talaga tayong kumuha ng inspiration ng mechanics, ng objectives, ng how to play the game sa mga existing games na. Halimbawa yung naiisip mo ngayon, based on “Monopoly.” Tas kanina yung levels baka pwedeng parallel sa “Exploding Kittens.” Actually kami rin, hindi rin siyang bagong-bagong idea talaga. Medyo rehash nang onti yung mga games na alam na alam na namin. And actually nung tinetest na namin yung games, madali rin siya ituro sa bata kapag familiar na sila. “Ha! Parang alam ko na ‘to. Parang nilalaro na namin ito. Meron lang dagdag na gan’to.” So int terms, hindi na sila magfofocus sa kung paano lalaruin ito. Magfofocus na sila doon sa paano ako mananalo or paano ako matututo rito.

DENZ: Actually iyon din yung gusto kong mangyari. Yung parang familiar na sila sa hitsura ng game, iniisip ko talaga mukha siyang “Monopoly”, as in may board game siya, ta’s may cards and all they need to do is para saan yung card. Ano yung ginagaw ng card, ano yung ginagawa ng dice doon. Ano yung timer, bakit may timer? Diba sa Monopoly wala namang timer bakit dito kailangan ng timer? Parang ganoon.

Kasi kapag familiar ka na sa board game, sa tingin mo kahit unang tingin mo pa lang, basta laro na lang nang laro, diba. Kapag hindi na lang alam iyong instructions, tsaka na lang bubuksan yung instructions. And iyon yung gusto kong mangyari. Out of curiosity, iyon yung gusto kong i-target. Bakit, anong meron dito sa board game na ‘to? Bakit kakaiba siya? Iyon din yung pumasok sa isip ko dahil nung naglalaro ako ng “Politricks’ – nung una sabi ko, ang galing kasi Pilipino yung Politricks. And then pinapakita niya talaga kung gaano kaharsh yung mga laro sa politics. And then I realized na ang galing nung nagconceptualize nito.

Yung game, simpleng simple lang siya pero nakikita mo yung reality ng politics sa Philippines – binenbenta mo yung probinsya para makakuha ka ng boto. Yun yung idea ko kung bakit ako nag-come-up na game yung gagawin ko. And this time gusto ko maapreciate nama nila yung first aid.

DENZ: Just to give you a background kung ano yung gusto ko itarget sa game. Meron kasi kaming tinatawag na syllabus. Sa syllabus na iyon, ito yung ginagamit namin sa DRR under first aid. Kung mapapansin niyo, sobrang simple niya lang pero kung malalaman nila iyan sa game, “Ah, ganito pala dapat. Hindi pala ako dapat humawak agad sa victim or hindi pala ako dapat lumapit agad sa victim kasi may possibility na ako yung maging victim.” May mga tendency kasing ganoon. So, doon sa game, kunyari, naaksidente ka nung ni-rescue mo, pwedeng bumaba yung level mo.

JOVI: Ito rin kasi iyong, similar to how “Handang Heroes” was developed and why we decided to go with games is because, we want a safe space to simulate the situations without bringing them out of the classroom. Kailangan nilang maconnect into a real experience yung natutunan nila. Hindi lang siya binabasa o prinepresent.

DENZ: Kasi right now, diba, online tayo ngayon. Ang hirap kasi magturo. Ang hirap magsimulate pero ito, kung ibibigay ko yung game, “O sige maglaro kayo a week. And then sabihin niyo sa akin kung paano niyo sinagot yung question kapag nandito na kayo sa lesson na ‘to.

On Handang Heroes, the Habi-designed DRRM game

JPAUL: Sa gitna ng aming kuwentuhan napag-usapan ang mga larong nabuo namin para sa Handang Heroes at kung bakit card games ang napili namin para sa mga ito.

DENZ: Tama ba ako, it’s a card game?

KAYE: Yes, card games po siya na downloadable and printable po siya sa website.

DENZ: Ah, okay. Pero wala siyang board?

JOVI: We weren’t able to create a board kasi one of the design principles that we abided by, is that it can easily be reproduced by the teacher or even customized. Nagsettle kami with card games because madali siyang i-print out, madali siyang i-copy. Madali siyang i-modify rin ng teachers if gusto nila.

Pero para rin for your objective, maganda rin na may board game. Maganda na siyang anchor for your process.

DENZ: Actually naisip ko rin iyon e. Paano mo siya papadamihin? Paano mo siya i-introduce sa ibang ano, paano nga kung board game siya? Yung cards pwede talaga siyang i-print. Actually yung board, pwede siyang iprint kasi hindi naman kailangan na sobrang laki nung board. Pwede rin naman siyang kasing laki lang siya ng bond paper. And then yung placing lang naman ng pamato, nung character mo, is depende rin sa iyo kung anong gusto mong gamitin. Ta’s yung dice, kung may available pero meron din namang dice na printable. Siguro yung timer, kahit relo, pwede naman siguro, for one minute, parang ganoon.

Are there rules in game design?

DENZ: Is there such a rule, or steps on how to make a board game? For example dapat ba ito muna, or dapat magawa muna ito bago ito.

KAYE: JPaul diba merong yung elements of a game?

JPAUL: Yeah, naisip ko nga rin, meron yung parts of a game and how they are interconnected with each other. Halimbawa lahat ng games may player or player interactions so kunyari collaborative or competitive. Lahat sila may objective or goal na gusto mong ma-achieve or makuha. Doon mo rin malalaman kung game over na or kung pwede na tapusin yung game kasi na-achieve na yung goal.

And then may rules and mechanics on how you play the game – magpapatayan ba kayo? Or mag-uunahan mag-ubusan ng cards? Pataasan or memorize-an ba ito? Mga ganon, rules and mechanics.

JOVI: May nakita akong formal framework – mechanics, dynamics, and aesthetics framework to game design. Pero mas game design lens. Pero maganda siyang framework kasi it talks about three major components of designing the game. Tapos it also talks about how you might want to prioritize or think about each of the components. Medyo nahuhuli talaga yung aesthetics kasi parang, doon siya sa dulo. The game is really dependent on the rules na sineset mo or dini-design mo and how the players interact with it.

KAYE: Marami akong kilalang gamer na sinasabi nilang, “Ang chaka ng cards” or “ang chaka ng pieces” pero nag-eenjoy pa rin sila because it’s the mechanics that makes it fun.

DENZ: Yeah, that’s true. Kahit simple lang yung hitsura ng cards, ‘no? You know, I am so happy right now na naiiintindihan niyo ako. Sa totoo lang, sobrang happy na ako na may nakakaintindi sa gusto kong mangyari.

JPAUL: Ako kasi nakikita ko siyang feasible. Like, nung kinukuwento mo siya kanina, na-iimagine ko siya. Pero iyon nga, siyempre ano, I guess yung sakit ng karamihang game designers sa umpisa, marami talagang gustong gawin or maraming gustong i-hit. Pero iyon nga, dahil nakalagay naman dito sa plans niyo na, i-tetest mo siya, i-proprotoype niyo siya with the actual students, doon natin makikita yung mga blind spots natin. Ano yung kaya nila or yung hindi nila kaya. So ako, okay lang e, okay lang na magstart sa ganoon – na medyo mataas yung aims or goals and then eventuallay magiging mas realistic siya as we go along and test pa.

Is there a standard number of spaces, blocks, or cards for games?

DENZ: Is there a standard number? Like in a board game na monopoly type – is there a standard number? What do you call that?

KAYE: Spaces?

DENZ: Yung iniikutan? May kailangan bang sundin? May number ba of cards na kailangan? Maximum or minimum?

KAYE: Feeling ko for those kind of questions, sa technical game desinger talaga kasi siya yung may alam e. I remember nung nagprototype kami with Nico na game designer, nagbigay na siya ng advice in playing the cards. For example sinabi niya na, dapat pwede siyang basahin kahit baliktad siya. Or dapat may marker siya sa upper left hand kasi, for example, kapag nag-fan ka ng deck of cards, yung upper left lang yung makikita mo. Something like that. Iyon yung mga technical specifications that help make your game more playable in a technical sense. If that make sense.

JPAUL: Ako naman, tingin ko Sir, walang rule talaga kung ilan, kung ilang blocks, ilang cards. Halimbawa, ang chess board ay 8 by 8. Kasi, yung kung sino man ang nag-design ng chess, naisip niya na 8 by 8 yung sakto. Iba yun halimbawa sa dimensions ng “Monopoly” or “Snakes and Ladders” kasi iba-iba rin yung objective nila, or iba-iba rin yung gusto nilang mangyari. Ang standard deck of cards is 52 cards pero may game, kunyari ang “Uno”, ‘di ko alam a, pero 100 plus cards yata ang cards ng “Uno.” It would really depend kung ano yung gusto ma-achieve or ano yung kailangan sa game. Kung ilan ‘yung magiging blocks, or magiging spaces. And actually, Sir, related siya doon sa sinasabi niyo kanina na prototyping. Kasi doon din sya lalabas e. Doon kayo makakuha ng feedback tuland ng, “ay ang daming cards. Hindi ko nagamit lahat” or “ay parang ang kaunto nung blocks. Natapos namin agad laruin, like in 10 minutes e gusto namin yung game, mas mahaba.”

Doon niyo po makikita na, ay ok, baka kailangan ko i-adjust yung blocks o siguro kailangan kong hirapan nang onti. So actually, Sir, doon sa pinakita kong diagram kanina yung different game mechanics – kaya rin sya ganoon yung diagram niya, ang ibig sabihin noon ay everything is related or everything is connected to each other. The number of blocks will depend on what you want and will depend on the time na gusto niyong nilalaro nila. It would also depend on the character interaction or the player interaction. And then during the prototyping and development, isa siya malaking endeavor of finding the right balance, tamang configuration for each aspect of the game hanggang sa ok na or this will work.

DENZ: Okay, now I get it. Iniisip ko kasi, kapag masyadong madami, nakakboring na siya, diba? Kapag sobra namang maikli, iyon na iyon? Kaya ko natanong iyon kung may standard ba kasi para, kapag tinanong ako kung sino nagdecide na ito lang yung number of blocks, at least I can say na it says here in this manual na ganito ganyan. Pero kung wala siya, at least I can defend na it depends on the game master or the game producer kung paano nila gusto pahabain or paikliin yung game.

JOVI: I think doon lang po sa point niyo kanina on – parang defense na ‘to no? I think valid to say na kaya mo dinecide na ganito lang it’s because you tested it with your audience and ito yung comfortable for them. That’s evidence enough. It didn’t need to be based on any existing literature, I think, kasi the the game design is yours. It was really based on your ideas and you were able to test it out. Especially since impact project nga po. And it was proven given the feedback of your participants.

JPAUL: Yung isa sa napaisip ako about is yung processing niya. Sa tunay na buhay ganito yung nangyayari kaya ganito yung rules natin. And I think, iyon yung maganda rin ilatag either sa start or dulo ng game. “Yung game natin ay may ganitong mechanic or may ganitong rule kasi sa tunay na buhay ganito siya” or pwede rin siya sa dulo. Siyempre hindi lang naman nila lalaruin yung game pagkatapos. Ako i imagine may konting discussion siya, kaunting processing. So parang macoconnect siya sa actual or yung mga rules na nakalagay sa game, hindi siya arbitrary. Meron talaga siyang connect or deeper meaning kumbaga.

How do you prototype games?

JPAUL: Sa bahaging ito, tinalakay namin ang kahalagaan ng pagproprotype at kung paano ito pwedeng isagawa.

DENZ: Naaalala ko sinabi niyo sa amin e. Ito yung pinakamahabang process, yung prototyping. Paano ba natin siya sisimulan?

KAYE: I would say, may certain level of done-ness [completeness] na kaya mong i-evaluate sa sarili mo. For example gusto mong i-test yung mechanics. Then yung mechanics, dapat ready for presentation. Kahit hindi yung buong game. And then it really helps to prototype with kung sino yung target audience ninyo kasi sila yung makasabi sa inyo kung anong direction dapat dinadala yung game. I think ang pinanakatulong sa amin ay nung dinala naming sa senior highschoolers talaga tapos sinabi nila na, “Ah, parang ang liit-liit ata ng ano, ng graphics” or “Hindi ko alam kung anong ibig sabihin nito” or “Naguluhan ako sa mechanics ng game.” Doon din lumalabas.

JOVI: Siguro yung isang point lang din, yung kinukuwento, yung sabi niyo po kanina na kapag masyadong mahaba, boring. Kapag masyadong maikli, mabilis lang. Ayon po, maybe a tip, when you are prototyping is to reserve judgement. Huwag niyo po muna, kumbaga, pangunahan ng evaluation yung ideas niyo until matest niyo with your audience kasi ma-stu-stuck kayo sa parang cycle, judgement cycle na internal lang when mas important yung feedback na ibibigay sa inyo ng users niyo. Ang tip lang ay gawa lang nang gawa and ipakita niyo lang agad. The earlier you test out the ideas the better it is for your overall design process.

DENZ: Ok, oo nga ‘no. Totoo nga iyon kasi hindi ka naman pwede mag-evaluate ng sarili mo lang. Kailangan may evaluation or galing sa feedback ng ibang tao para makikita mo ang different perspective ng characters.

JOVI: If we are talking about games, and putting them into a game-like experience. And this is something that we learned – I am sure you remember this, Kaye. Something that we learned when we consulted with an actual game designer is when educators gamify a lesson, they tend to forget the aspect of it being fun and challenging kasi minsan we say this is an educational game but in reality it’s actually a learning activity or an assessment because wala yung elements that make it fun and challenging. So I guess that’s the next layer. I think you are on the right track in terms of the theoretical foundation of the game. You are about to hit what you want the game to teach your students. And your next level is how to make it fun and engaging and also challenging in a way. Kapag when we stop at it na yung mechanics are simply simulating the scenarios – it’s not a game. It’s an assessment but if you are pushing it to be game, it has to be within another layer of complexity. Hindi siya yung right word pero parang mas subtle kumbaga yung dating nung learning dapat. Mas challenging iyon for an educator.

DENZ: Actually, Sir, napaisip ako doon sa sinabi niyo regarding sa the game is supposed to be fun. Actually that’s true. I agree on that. Sobrang narealize ko na as an addict sa mga board games at mga card games, oo nga ‘no. Kasi naisip ko, katulad ko, hindi naman ako pipili ng card game or board game na gusto kong matutunan just because gusto ko lang siya matutunan. I mean, gusto ko siyang laurin, kasi sobrang masaya siya like for example “Sushi Go”, sobrang simple lang nung card game na iyon pero sobrang tuwang-tuwa ako. Ta’s yung pinalaro niyo sa amin, yung bilog?

KAYE: Spot It.

DENZ: Yeah, that’s it. Sobrang natuwa ako doon. Gusto ko na ngang bumili. Narealize ko ngayon na oo nga ‘no, pero ano yung nagpapachallenge sa akin na laruin yung mga game na iyon? Ngayon ko naisip na, dapat pala, kapag nilalaro mo siya, you are challenging someone. I mean for example, naglalaro tayong tatlo ng ganito. Bagiging masaya siya kapag may chinachallenge siyang ibang tao tas ikaw ichachallenge ka rin nila. And then that makes the game fun. Kapag ikaw lang kasi ang naglalaro, kung tayo naglalaro apat, pero nilalaro lang natin yung game just because of ourselves, hindi siya masaya – wala siyang connection. Pero kung may challenge na nangyayari between us, ibig sabihin may connection tayo sa isa’t isa. Sa totoong game, may chances kasi na, kailangan mong ilaglag yung player na iyon parang ganoon, diba. Pero that makes the game fun. It’s just a game, in a way, pero that makes it more fun.

JPAUL: Oo, actually, naaala ko yung eight kinds of fun. Yung isa sa mga pinagaralan o binalikan nung nagdedesign din kami – according sa isang framework, meron daw eight kinds of fun. Walong dahilan or aspects kung bakit masaya ang isang game at isa doon ay yung “challenge.” SIguro iyon yung narealize ko, baka nga for educaiton games, among all the eight kinds, yung challenge yung pinakacommon or yung challenge, hindi naman, I would say most appropriate. I would say most common. Halimbawa yung isa sa eight kinds of fun ay “submission” – mindless pastime. Kunyari maglalaro ka ng “Temple Run” ng wala kang ginagawa kundi swipe left of right. Sa isang educational game, parang hindi yata ganoong klaseng fun yung gusto mong ilagay sa game. Pero a challenge, competitiveness kasi gusto mong maging alert yung students. Or kapag nasa ano, classroom setting iyan, medyo competitive talag ayugn nature ng students. Gusto nila ng kaunting competition, so nagki-click sa kanila yung ganoong klase ng games.

KAYE: Siguro kapag nagproprotype ka rin, yung naaalala ko dito, Jpaul, diba may isa kang game na gusto natin siyang i-polish nang i-polish pero umabot na yata tayo sa deadline.

So there are certain games na hindi naman abandonin mo na siya pero alamin mo sa sarili mo na okay may deadline ako kasi thesis ko ‘to. Hindi puwedeng forever akong nag-aayos ng mechanics. Kaya din nakakatulong din yung maagang prototype so at least mahaba yung time mo to find that out.

JPAUL: Yung nakatulong satin na tanong dati, “Masaya ka na ba dito?” Is this something or is this a version that you can live with? Tingin mo, papasa na? HIndi naman sa pagiging mediocre pero I guess being realistic lang din. A published game that is not perfect is still better than a game that is not published at all. Iyon yung maganda rin with games e. Pwede kasi syang iupdate, pwede pa siyang habulin. Oo, pwede siyang i-level-up. Na kahit na lumbasa na siya or narelease na siya, tayo bilang developer, kaya pa rin nating ihabol na actually may update doon sa game, ganito na siya. And then yung pag-update or pagrelease niya into the world is actually not the end of it. Actually para siyang extension of prototyping pero with a larger, worldwide or nationwide scale. Which is exciting and fun din. And then makakakuha ka rin ng feedback. Actually maganda iyon. Isang nilagay din namin is if you have feedback on the games, message us. Kasi minsan sila rin yung makakahuli nung oi itong part na ‘to. Or nagustuhan namin itong feature na ‘to. May naisip kaming spin-off sa level na to, parang ganoon.

DENZ: Naalala ko iyan parang sa “Mobile Legends” may mga bias na character so nagfefeedback lang yung mga players na bakit ito sorang ganito tas pinapalitan nila every time may bagong version.

Actually gusto ko yung term mo kanina, “Masaya ka na ba dito?” Kailangan ko ng mga ganoong quotation na ilalagay ko sa kuwarto ko, na everytime na titingnan ko, “Okay, masaya na ba ako rito?” Kasi siyempre nasa taste mo rin iyon as a developer e. Katulad ko, card addict ako. Okay na ba ako rito? E masyado pa man din akong maarte pagdating sa design.

Ang gusto kong mangyari, gusto ko na siyang simulan. Andoon na yung excitement ko.

Check Out

JPAUL: To close our call, we started it with a check in, let’s close it with a check out. Yung check out natin ay sobrang simple lang. After nitong usapan natin after game design and educational games, ano para sa iyo ang isang masayang educational game?

JOVI: Ako ano, replayable.

JPAUL: Ang isang masayang educational game ay challenging.

DENZ: Ako siguro, something I can promote.

KAYE: Ako, kayang laruin sa labas ng classroom.

[Habi Hour Outro]